From my experience most dog needs a very clear criteria for contacts or else the performance will start to deteriorate.  By just teaching the dog to 'wait' at the end of the dogwalk or a-frame I feel you're setting yourself up for a slow contact performance down the line.  WHERE exactly do they stop?  With 2o/2o it's quite clear.  With 4 on the board they will start trying to wait ealier and earlier to get their reward sooner or simply because they are uncertain. 

With the steep angle of the AFrame, I would think it might be tough for the dog to wait on the Aframe with all 4 feet on it. Unless he has suction cups on his feet.

Hi Henry

 

I too am training a wait on the teeter, I think 2o2o on it is too dangerous.... If they do it before it's hit the ground. But I like 2o2o for other contacts. Here in NZ the teeter has no slats, and all other contact equipment does. So it's easy to see the difference.

 To me, the nice thing about 2o2o is that your dog has a easy job to do, stop at the bottom with 2 feet on the ground and 2 on the contact equipment, where as waiting in the contact zone is a little grey. JMO

 

Cheers Darryl 

"So it's easy to see the difference." 

I beg to differ here. In the USDAA there are no slats on the teeter, but slats on the A-frame and dog walk. If I had a cookie for every time I had a Pairs partner tell me, or overheard someone saying "He'll blow that teeter, he thinks it's the dogwalk" I'd be too fat to run an agility course. From what I've seen at trials, some dogs don't think it's so easy to see!

 When I started training Tessie, I'd never even heard of a 2o/2o, and although it's good for some people I don't know if I'd ever train one. There's a lot of discussion on this on the A-frame Controversy post. Too many dogs slamming their chins/fronts on the table... not my cup of tea. I run a 22" dog and I've never had an issue with missed contacts, really, and I just use a simple "easy!" when she's coming down the descent ramp. She isn't a lightning-fast Border Collie, but she takes contact obstacles at an excellent clip and I'm a happy camper. Of course, the next dog may very well be totally different, but I still don't think I'll be doing the 2o.

--- Sunrise Sweet Tess TT CGC JH-B English Springer Spaniel

Sorry, but I don't agree.  

"In the USDAA there are no slats on the teeter, but slats on the A-frame and dog walk. If I had a cookie for every time I had a Pairs partner tell me, or overheard someone saying "He'll blow that teeter, he thinks it's the dogwalk" I'd be too fat to run an agility course."

2 of my dogs have sliding teeters into a 2o2o position. They also have 2o2o on A-frames and Dogwalks... I don't think at this point in time, I'd ever put my dog over a slatless dogwalk BECAUSE of this reason. Maybe if the people you are partners with are doing NADAC and USDAA this would be a problem. I'm not sure I'd know, if I was a dog, the difference between a slatless dogwalk and a teeter. I want my dogs to know their jobs, which is to go as fast as they can, into a 2o2o position on every obstacle. 

How would an "easy" command work really well on a Masters Gamblers course including a contact obstacle. With competition becoming pretty fierce, and the need for Super Qs for ADCHs, would an "easy" command be fast enough to win a large class? I know I don't have the timing to be saying "easy" for a speedy contact performance. Maybe you do. What happens if you're late saying "easy?" What happens if you fall while your dog is halfway over the dogwalk? Will they still hit the contact? There are way too many "what ifs?" in my opinion, for this method. My very first agility dogs were trained with "easy" commands, and they weren't 100% reliable.

The true running contacts I've seen include months of training to teach dogs with stride regulators, touch boards, RATs, etc. 

I guess it depends on how competitive you really want to be, and what your long term goals are. Also depends on what you want your dog to be responsible for. I know I want my dogs to be responsible for their own contacts, so I can be the best handler I can be getting in position to give them an on time and precise command for what's next.

My youngest dog was trained for 1RTO, which I think is less harsh on a dogs body. I'm experimenting with running contacts on him, but will probably resort to using 1RTO because I like the security of knowing no matter where I am my dog will always run to the bottom, stop, and wait for a release from me.

If you watch some of the new interviews on TNT Agility Dynamite you'll get a great incite into a quality training program. 

jmho. 

Katie

I got a little off topic responding to a reply, not the original post.

The key to a 2o2o teeter is to teach your dog to shift their weight to the rear while before getting in the 2o2o position. My smaller dog was much better at leaning back then my older dog was.

I do loads of training on backing up with my dogs. This causes them to be aware of what their rear ends are doing. Also consider getting the Clean Run issues where Susan Garrett goes over stair training. Ask your dog to back up until their rear feet are on a different surface. A curb and grass, carpet and hardwood, carpet and tile, wood board and grass, wood board and carpet. Not talking about laminate flooring vs. hardwood.... ; ) 

There are teeters out there that have boards which are just too heavy, and I've seen them come back up and hit 50 pound dogs... they are pretty rare though.  

Feel free to message me if you want me to go into more detail.

Watch some videos on Agility Video service of Soda, Encore, Quick, Driven for 2o2o teeters... Agility Video Service is an AMAZING tool... utilize it to it's full potential!!!! 

Katie

I teach a 4 on teeter.  Mine haven't ever had an issue with thinking it's a dog walk.  The performance criteria includes racing to the bottom of the teeter and waiting with all four on until released.  Seems clear cut enough for me.  I've found it highly effective, and no shoulder/belly/other joint injuries to speak of.  My dogs aren't lightening fast but, I feel safer with them performing it this way.  Dog walk and A-Frame are both 2o2o again, with no problems.

Megan, Buzz, and Bailey along with the occasional Yellow Cassie Dog

I just went over this with my instructor( 4on teeter, 2on2off, AF & DW), a NADAC judge and NADAC Nationals champion. She teaches 4 on the teeter for 2 reasons: (1) Safety, (2) Precision. If the dog's front feet leave the teeter too soon, many judges will call a fly-off, especially at the Elite/Excellent/Masters' level. Also remember that the dog's "job" is not just the contact, but the entire piece of equipment from start to finish. So even though a teeter looks like the DW at the beginning, the dog does not complete them the same. The dog develops a different muscle memory sequence for each piece of equipment. (and it's our  job as trainers to define the entire sequence.) For example, the DW is run up, run flat, run down, contact (whichever contact you define for the DW.) This should become the complete sequence for the dog. We may break out different pieces for training, but our end goal is *Independent Obstacle* performance, not just independent contacts. Therefore an independent teeter could be, run up, sense the tip, run to the end and pause with 4 on. 

Pam, Tika & Sassy (retired) (still working on independent obstacle performance!!)

My preferred stop position for the seesaw (teeter) is 4-on. My older BC Merry was taught 2o2o for all contacts including the seesaw back in the days when I trained at a club that was in the dark ages where positive reinforcement methods were concerned. I've never liked the resulting seesaw stop position, for two reasons:

Firstly, when overenthusiastic you can end up with a 'flier', or at best the dog hanging on by the hind feet with the front feet paddling in the air (obviously you're most likely to get this with a fast dog, not a steady one). Secondly, many dogs that have been taught a 2o2o on the seesaw actually do a 4-on and then move forward into the 2o2o position. This, to me muddies the stop position you actually want. Both the reasons above are why I've taught my younger BC Bliss a 4-on seesaw.

Bliss has been taught 4-off contacts for the dogwalk and A-frame, because here in the UK you are very unlikely to win even a Novice level class if your dog stops on those contacts. I also really dislike seeing dogs come down the A-frame at speed and slam into the 2o2o position!

My 4-off method isn't the same as Ann Croft's 4OTF method which uses hoops, instead I use clicker/target, and position the target past the end of the contact so the dog is completely on the ground when doing the nose touch. So in effect it shapes the dog to run the complete dogwalk and A-frame every time.

Have fun!
Fiona
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